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Hello.
I’d like put a better front brake on my es250/2 combination. Can people give me some suggestions, pointers etc.
Thanks, Tony
Sent from my iPhone using voice recognition
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Present set up.
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On 24 Sep 2020, at 20:44, Anthony Lloyd via groups.io <anthony.lloyd98@...> wrote:
Hello.
I’d like put a better front brake on my es250/2 combination. Can people give me some suggestions, pointers etc.
Thanks, Tony
Sent from my iPhone using voice recognition
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I gather Jawa tls drum pretty much slots straight in. I put a Honda tls drum of an unknown 70s bike into my TS250 with a machined up collar around the fork slider to attach the torque arm to. Needed a couple of spacers machined up to centralise wheel on axle, which was same diameter for both honda & MZ. I gather Suzuki & Yamah hubs will fit with a bit of fettling too. I had a 19" rim laced onto hub & had to change mudguard to suit Less mudguard options with ES I'd guess. Good luck.
Yours, Matt
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On 24 Sep 2020, at 21:29, Anthony Lloyd via groups.io <anthony.lloyd98@...> wrote:
Present set up.
On 24 Sep 2020, at 20:44, Anthony Lloyd via groups.io <anthony.lloyd98@...> wrote:
Hello.
I’d like put a better front brake on my es250/2 combination. Can people give me some suggestions, pointers etc.
Thanks, Tony
Sent from my iPhone using voice recognition
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I fitted an ETZ disk assembly in my ES250/2 laced into a 16" rim. The calliper was mounted below the s/arm leg using 1/4" steel plate. and spacers on the spindle to get it lined up. In my case I wanted to retain the original appearance so a BMW master cylinder from the BMW /6 series was used operated by cable from the normal front brake lever. In your case you already have more conventional handlebars so a standard master cylinder could be used. The benefit was using MZ parts I already had in stock and MZ wheels are easy to build though I did have to get some suitable length spokes made up. I can give you more info and pictures if you want to go down this route. Honda or other Japanese TLS hubs are harder to source these days at sensible prices and it would be a specialist job to get the wheel relaced for a 16" rim. I would not suggest using an 18" rim on an outfit. Not on the outfit but I have tried a Jawa TLS front hub and found it gave no improvement over the MZ brake. If you have not already tried it, the MZ brake can be significantly improved by having oversize lining machined to fit the drum exactly. We have a company near Bristol who do this for you for about £20 but you do need to give them the wheel as well unless you have the capability for machine the linings in the hub. Best of luck, Peter 
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Thanks for that Mat. I might well give this a try. A bit ratty but should clean.
On 24 Sep 2020, at 22:05, Matt Jarrett <mattjarrett67@...> wrote:
I gather Jawa tls drum pretty much slots straight in. I put a Honda tls drum of an unknown 70s bike into my TS250 with a machined up collar around the fork slider to attach the torque arm to. Needed a couple of spacers machined up to centralise wheel on axle, which was same diameter for both honda & MZ. I gather Suzuki & Yamah hubs will fit with a bit of fettling too. I had a 19" rim laced onto hub & had to change mudguard to suit Less mudguard options with ES I'd guess. Good luck. Yours, MattOn 24 Sep 2020, at 21:29, Anthony Lloyd via groups.io <anthony.lloyd98@...> wrote:
Present set up.
On 24 Sep 2020, at 20:44, Anthony Lloyd via groups.io <anthony.lloyd98@...> wrote:
Hello.
I’d like put a better front brake on my es250/2 combination. Can people give me some suggestions, pointers etc.
Thanks, Tony
using voice recognition
<image.jpg>
<image.jpg>
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That’s a nice set up you’ve got there Peter. I was hoping for a bit less work. And, I do prefer the look of the drum rather than the disk. Last year I spoke to a chap who had converted his ES 250 outfit using the Jawa TLS, he thought it an improvement. I wonder if he had changed the linings to something better. I might be able to contact him again, as this was by via eBay messenger. Below is a picture of his conversion.
 using voice recognition
On 25 Sep 2020, at 08:00, Peter Fielding <starfield181@...> wrote:
I fitted an ETZ disk assembly in my ES250/2 laced into a 16" rim. The calliper was mounted below the s/arm leg using 1/4" steel plate. and spacers on the spindle to get it lined up. In my case I wanted to retain the original appearance so a BMW master cylinder from the BMW /6 series was used operated by cable from the normal front brake lever. In your case you already have more conventional handlebars so a standard master cylinder could be used. The benefit was using MZ parts I already had in stock and MZ wheels are easy to build though I did have to get some suitable length spokes made up. I can give you more info and pictures if you want to go down this route. Honda or other Japanese TLS hubs are harder to source these days at sensible prices and it would be a specialist job to get the wheel relaced for a 16" rim. I would not suggest using an 18" rim on an outfit. Not on the outfit but I have tried a Jawa TLS front hub and found it gave no improvement over the MZ brake. If you have not already tried it, the MZ brake can be significantly improved by having oversize lining machined to fit the drum exactly. We have a company near Bristol who do this for you for about £20 but you do need to give them the wheel as well unless you have the capability for machine the linings in the hub. Best of luck, Peter <130620121227.jpg>
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I've been impressed with the EBC shoes in my TS 125. In the past I have got the shoes "relined" locally, but I reckon the company was taking the mickey, as I'm 99% sure they didtched my old shoes, bought cheap crap and charged me for a reline service. The shoes looked much newer than the ones I had taken in, and gave no better braking than the old ones. So now I use off-the-shelf EBC for the TS, and villiers services for my more obscure bikes.
EBC also do shoes for the TLS Jawa. I know this because I bought a pair which I am using for another silly project - a custom brake backplate that mounts on the original side of the MZ, using the original torque arm. It's still very much at "design stage", however.
I was surprised by how much my TS brake was improved with a Venhill cable, rather than the cheap ones from the usual suppliers. They're teflon lined, so are much smoother in opertation, and have a thicker inner cable which doesnt stretch. Both factors seem to give a better brake. I know they're not cheap, but I swear by them now, especially after having a cheap cable fail.
I think with the EBC shoes, the jawa backplate and a venhill cable, you should have an improved brake. But I wouldnt expect wonders. Anyway - keep us posted if you do decide to go the Jawa route. It seems like a cheap and fairly easy option
Ollie
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Right, I’ve taken the plunge and bout the Jawa TLS off eBay. I’ll take the advice on the cable and shoes. Even if no improvement, it will not have been too expensive or time consuming (hopefully).
On 25 Sep 2020, at 10:50, Ollie Harris <15061647@...> wrote:
I've been impressed with the EBC shoes in my TS 125. In the past I have got the shoes "relined" locally, but I reckon the company was taking the mickey, as I'm 99% sure they didtched my old shoes, bought cheap crap and charged me for a reline service. The shoes looked much newer than the ones I had taken in, and gave no better braking than the old ones. So now I use off-the-shelf EBC for the TS, and villiers services for my more obscure bikes.
EBC also do shoes for the TLS Jawa. I know this because I bought a pair which I am using for another silly project - a custom brake backplate that mounts on the original side of the MZ, using the original torque arm. It's still very much at "design stage", however.
I was surprised by how much my TS brake was improved with a Venhill cable, rather than the cheap ones from the usual suppliers. They're teflon lined, so are much smoother in opertation, and have a thicker inner cable which doesnt stretch. Both factors seem to give a better brake. I know they're not cheap, but I swear by them now, especially after having a cheap cable fail.
I think with the EBC shoes, the jawa backplate and a venhill cable, you should have an improved brake. But I wouldnt expect wonders. Anyway - keep us posted if you do decide to go the Jawa route. It seems like a cheap and fairly easy option
Ollie
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Update on the Jawa twin leading shoe conversion for my MZ ES 250/2. It’s a lot easier to show you in pictures than to ramble on too much. As we are still in lockdown (Covid-19) I’ll tell you how I get on when I take the outfit for a drive and try to get the linings bedded in.
On 25 Sep 2020, at 13:48, Anthony Lloyd <anthony.lloyd98@...> wrote:
Right, I’ve taken the plunge and bout the Jawa TLS off eBay. I’ll take the advice on the cable and shoes. Even if no improvement, it will not have been too expensive or time consuming (hopefully). Will update ASAP.
On 25 Sep 2020, at 10:50, Ollie Harris <15061647@...> wrote:
I've been impressed with the EBC shoes in my TS 125. In the past I have got the shoes "relined" locally, but I reckon the company was taking the mickey, as I'm 99% sure they didtched my old shoes, bought cheap crap and charged me for a reline service. The shoes looked much newer than the ones I had taken in, and gave no better braking than the old ones. So now I use off-the-shelf EBC for the TS, and villiers services for my more obscure bikes.
EBC also do shoes for the TLS Jawa. I know this because I bought a pair which I am using for another silly project - a custom brake backplate that mounts on the original side of the MZ, using the original torque arm. It's still very much at "design stage", however.
I was surprised by how much my TS brake was improved with a Venhill cable, rather than the cheap ones from the usual suppliers. They're teflon lined, so are much smoother in opertation, and have a thicker inner cable which doesnt stretch. Both factors seem to give a better brake. I know they're not cheap, but I swear by them now, especially after having a cheap cable fail.
I think with the EBC shoes, the jawa backplate and a venhill cable, you should have an improved brake. But I wouldnt expect wonders. Anyway - keep us posted if you do decide to go the Jawa route. It seems like a cheap and fairly easy option
Ollie
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Neat job Anthony. Hope it works well.
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It won’t have the stopping power of the BMW disk you did, but, it might be better than the original MZ. Whatever, I’ve enjoyed the fiddling, and not too costly. Probably worth a mention, that the brake plate needed a few mm taking off its outer periphery.
Neat job Anthony. Hope it works well.
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Take a look at the braking distances of a TS250 recorded in a comparison test in the 70's in Bike magazine. What are we doing wrong or what did Wild Green do to the test bike?
It won’t have the stopping power of the BMW disk you did, but, it might be better than the original MZ. Whatever, I’ve enjoyed the fiddling, and not too costly. Probably worth a mention, that the brake plate needed a few mm taking off its outer periphery.
Neat job Anthony. Hope it works well.
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I had a new TS125 in 1976 and a new Supa5 in 1981 (Still got that one) and I don't remember brakes being an issue when they were new. Many years later on the Supa5 I did suffer brake fade coming down Porlock Hill which focussed my attention though why it should have taken all those years and miles who can say. At that time I improved it by fitting oversize linings and turning them down to fit the drum perfectly. Maybe that is what the factory did?
Anyway it now has a Honda tls front brake fitted prior to a trip to Spain for the Colombres Rally.
Peter
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I think the problem with MZ drum brakes became more apparent when servo-assisted discs became more common in the everyday car. My Minis, 2CV6 and Beetle all had drums and a similar stopping distance to my MZs.
Tony Houlihan Windermere England Europe
I had a new TS125 in 1976 and a new Supa5 in 1981 (Still got that one) and I don't remember brakes being an issue when they were new. Many years later on the Supa5 I did suffer brake fade coming down Porlock Hill which focussed my attention though why it should have taken all those years and miles who can say. At that time I improved it by fitting oversize linings and turning them down to fit the drum perfectly. Maybe that is what the factory did?
Anyway it now has a Honda tls front brake fitted prior to a trip to Spain for the Colombres Rally.
Peter
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Over the years we have explored many of the ways to improve the braking capacity of our bikes, one of the problems not addressed very often with the older models, ie those before the TS250/1 were related to the steel insert. The brake drum linings in the early models were basically a non welded hoop that were installed during the casting process which was then trued and machined. In the later pre disc brake models they had a welded hoop which was machined prior to the casting process.
I came across this several times where due to overheating of the brake drum the liner popped out leaving one edge higher than the other and in my case ripped the brake lining off the shoe. This was an unnerving experience to say the least. It must have been a regular occurrence for the factory to have changed their design.
Brake materials, the original brake material was like a brown cardboard, I tried all sorts of things to try to improve them. The usual one was to file the leading edge to improve the immediate contact, pointless filing the other end as most of the contact on the drum is on the first two inches of the shoe, one trailing and one leading. The simplest and most worthwhile improvement is making a better front brake cable. If you buy one from Venhill you may have to modify it a little as they have exceedingly long nipples which get in the way of the MZ brake cable adjusters. It is also worthwhile to ensure that the cam and the brake pivots are thoroughly clean and smear some copper ease grease on these sparingly. I would suggest removing the brakes every now and then to remove dust and to check that these pivots are free moving. If they become dry they can cause dragging leading to overheating and then lack of retardation.
The best factory linings were the red ones with metal bits in ‘em. But these days they look like a non asbestos grey material that seems quite soft.
Usually when I fit new shoes I fit them to the front and move the old front ones to the rear because the rear ones are adjustable and you can get more leverage with the longer lever. You will notice that with Japanese brake shoes that the alloy heel of the brake has a steel insert where the cam spreads the shoes apart. Our MZ’s don’t have this so it is worthwhile to point out that when you are servicing the brakes to check if the metal cam has worn a groove into the soft flat alloy heel of the brake shoe. If it has a noticeable wear pattern swap the shoes around so the cam wears on a different spot. This can extend your brake shoe life. Now I know some will say that in disturbing the shoe like this the braking surface will change and that may be true but the old trailing surface will now become the leading edge to further enhance your braking challenges.
You can try this and see if it makes a difference or at least extend the use of the shoes.
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Just to add my two pence worth - l am restoring a 1960's Ariel arrow which has a poor reputation for its front brake, it seems a number of specialists are offering a longer operating/activation arm to create higher leverage. I have no experience or knowledge of anyone using one of these but it seems to make sense to me - being a simple soul. Is this anyone has tried ? If not may be worth a punt maybe. Stay sunny side up.
On 26 Nov 2020, at 23:18, Colm Mac Mahon < colm54@...> wrote: Over the years we have explored many of the ways to improve the braking capacity of our bikes, one of the problems not addressed very often with the older models, ie those before the TS250/1 were related to the steel insert. The brake drum linings in the early models were basically a non welded hoop that were installed during the casting process which was then trued and machined. In the later pre disc brake models they had a welded hoop which was machined prior to the casting process.
I came across this several times where due to overheating of the brake drum the liner popped out leaving one edge higher than the other and in my case ripped the brake lining off the shoe. This was an unnerving experience to say the least. It must have been a regular occurrence for the factory to have changed their design.
Brake materials, the original brake material was like a brown cardboard, I tried all sorts of things to try to improve them. The usual one was to file the leading edge to improve the immediate contact, pointless filing the other end as most of the contact on the drum is on the first two inches of the shoe, one trailing and one leading. The simplest and most worthwhile improvement is making a better front brake cable. If you buy one from Venhill you may have to modify it a little as they have exceedingly long nipples which get in the way of the MZ brake cable adjusters. It is also worthwhile to ensure that the cam and the brake pivots are thoroughly clean and smear some copper ease grease on these sparingly. I would suggest removing the brakes every now and then to remove dust and to check that these pivots are free moving. If they become dry they can cause dragging leading to overheating and then lack of retardation.
The best factory linings were the red ones with metal bits in ‘em. But these days they look like a non asbestos grey material that seems quite soft.
Usually when I fit new shoes I fit them to the front and move the old front ones to the rear because the rear ones are adjustable and you can get more leverage with the longer lever. You will notice that with Japanese brake shoes that the alloy heel of the brake has a steel insert where the cam spreads the shoes apart. Our MZ’s don’t have this so it is worthwhile to point out that when you are servicing the brakes to check if the metal cam has worn a groove into the soft flat alloy heel of the brake shoe. If it has a noticeable wear pattern swap the shoes around so the cam wears on a different spot. This can extend your brake shoe life. Now I know some will say that in disturbing the shoe like this the braking surface will change and that may be true but the old trailing surface will now become the leading edge to further enhance your braking challenges.
You can try this and see if it makes a difference or at least extend the use of the shoes.
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The original MZ front brake arm is inside the hub so extending it is impossible.
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Although thinking about it again maybe if it was curved rather than straight and twisted there might be some improvement. But for simplicity a thicker cable improves braking immensely and fitting a dog leg brake lever gives extra leverage, but takes away from the aesthetics of a well turned out concourse model. But if the bike is in regular use I prefer the advantage of improved function. Regular maintenance though is necessary
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It is clear to me, having had long experience of the TS front brake, that the real cause of the problem is the lack of leverage. Once this is improved the brake works much better. While having the lever inside the drum is neat and avoids some problems, it forces the use of a short arm. There are a number of ways round this.
Increase the leverage of the brake lever. Increasing the advantage here will increase the brakíng force , but will also increase the tension on the cable, so there may be a risk of it snapping.
Reduce the width of the cam. This will improve the leverage in proportion to the width reduction. There is a limit to how far you can take this, but it might be worth a try.
As is often done, fit a longer lever outside the drum. You can drill the pivot hole through and fit a shaft & cam from a back brake, or you can fit a back brake plate wth some modifications. As far as I know this works well.
Fit a disc brake. Much more work doing this. Generally it is best to fit ETZ forks to get everything lined up right, so it could be expensive.
I never did any of these, although I was tempted to try reducing the cam width. I did have the day when I pulled on the front brake and nothing happened. The pivot had siezed in the plate as soon as the shoes just about touched the drum. I had to drill a small hole in the plate and drive the pivot out with a drift. After that I checked and greased the pivot every chance I got. I also had a few exciting moments when I got back on the TS after riding the ETZ for a few weeks. I hurtled up to a roundabout with my usual abandon, grabbed a handful of brake, and nothing happened. Grabbed some more and a feeble decelleration followed. Compared to the disc nothing happened. I really do not believe that any amount of playng with cables and the fit of the shoes can overcome that difference, certainly not in the long run. It's all down to the simple leverage, or lack of it.
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First post here since the old Yahoo Group moved here - not that I was a particularly prolific poster on there !
My £0.02 on the SLS MZ front brake, based on experience with my TS250/1.
Braking when I first got the bike was medioce, so the shoes, brake plate and a front hub were taken to Saftek in Cleckeaton (on the recommendation of the late Mark Dicker). Their comment on looking at the OE shoes was that "those linings are too hard". They relined the OE shoes & turned them on the backplate to fit the drum. I added 3 or 4 diagonal cuts 2/3rds of the way through the lining material in the style used on trials bikes - to give somewhere for the dust to go (and mud and water on trails bikes). IIRC at the time (which is probably longer ago than I recall - Mark has been gone 10 years this year) the reline & turn to fit cost £15 per set and took 2 days
Then I made up a heavier duty cable from components from Vehicle Wiring Products. They had an outer cable that was very close to the MZ original in diameter so fits the brake plate, but their "next size up" inner fitted nicely in to this. IIRC the OE inner is 2.5mm & the VWP inner was 3.125mm (1/8"). The original handlebar adjuster is no good with the thicker inner cable, so a non-slotted version was turned up from SS hex bar that became an integral part of the completed cable, The slot in the brake lever was opened up to pass the new inner through using 2 hacksaw blades mounted side-by-side in the hacksaw frame.
With this arrangement the brake is good enough to bottom out the front suspension, but not lock the wheel, with a decent (Continetal) front tyre fitted. I feel it is adequate for the performance of the bike.
The German MZ parts dealers sell packing pieces in differing thicknesses to fit over the ends of the brake shoes where they contact the cam. This allows wearing shoes to be adjusted closer to the drum at the same time as allowing the cam to be nearer to "straight" at rest. Just taking up the slack with the cable adjuster moves the cam arm beyond 90 degrees to the cable, with resultant poor leverage - the shoe end packers return the cam to to a more optimal angle while atking up the wear.
My recollection of the change to the drum inner lining is slightly different to Colm's - the TS250/1 changed from a rolled steel insert to a cast iron ring insert with a ribbed outer surface. The cast iron gave a better coefficient of friction to the steel predecessor, and the ribbed outer surface gave more surface area to transfer heat to the hub cast around it. "New model" descriptions in the DDR motoring magazines of the time all make note of this change.
I have couple of the Honda CB250/350 K4 TLS hubs & backplates that were once a popular upgrade & one is laced into an MZ 18" rim. These require a change-over of the front fork legs, as the brake plate fits in the opposite side to the MZ original + a replacment torque arm needs to be fabricated. These brakes seem a bit thin on the ground these days & consequently are expensive. I did enquire of David Silver (obsolete Honda parts speciaalists) some years ago about the cost of replacing the cosmetically rusted chromed operating arms & linkage for one of these brakes - rather lost interest after the two arms alone were quoted at around £140 !
Regards,
Nigel Barraclough
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Peter Fielding