L181

[DJ-don]

i've been recently talking to TopAs (another PC member) about getting 2 L181's
she said that i shoulcnt keep it with the fish i have
218litre tank
2 adult common bn 2 juvy's
6 bronze corys
she said it wasnt save because these could possibly crossbreed with my 2 adults (my adult bn's havent bred yet) and the common bn's are more out going while the L181's are quite shy
she also said that she bred the l181
but the catelog says that these fish havent been bred yet
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 28&t=27524
in this link mats said it could possibly a hybrid

could someone shed some light on my decision please?

[MatsP]

Yes, keeping different species of Ancistrus (or more than one species any other genus of Loricariidae) in the same tank is likely to create hybrids.

In the case of "is that a hybrid or not", I think the jury is still out. It is certainly not L181, the spots are far too large. Neither is it L183

Ancistrus dolichopterus

.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

so would keeping them be a bit dangerous (making hybrids)? and would they be too small?

[MatsP]

Yes, keeping multiple species of the same genus (e.g. Ancistrus) together could create hybrids. Of course, if they are young, you may find that they do not cross-breed, but you still have the issue of them being less "forward", meaning that you either have to overfeed, or they will not get enough food. Neither is good for anything.

In summary, I wouldn't keep both in the same tank.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

oh ok the how big should the tank be for a L181 though?

[MatsP]

oh ok the how big should the tank be for a L181 though?

The true L181 grows quite large, up to about 20cm/8" - which means a tank that is at least 80 x 40 x 40 cm or 32" x 16" x 16".

Of course, since we don't know much about this fish, it's hard to say what size they grow to, and thus hard to say if they need that size tank, or you can get away with a smaller tank. 20 cm is just about the largest of all Ancistrus species.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

oh okay that just means i just have to fix my other tank (the other that leaked) and just cycle it and add them~~ and another thing how would a l333 do with the 2 common bn adults etc?

[MatsP]

Fixing your other tank would work.

L333 would be fine from a "not breeding together" perspective. But they require much more meaty food, and there's a small chance that the bristlenoses will eat too much meaty food, and not get enough fibre.

--
Mats

[Shane]

Yes, keeping different species of Ancistrus (or more than one species any other genus of Loricariidae) in the same tank is likely to create hybrids.

Mats,
What are you basing this statement on? In all my years in the hobby, and all the Ancistrus spp I have kept and spawned (oft times with more than one species in the same tank), I have never seen this reported nor had it happen myself. In fact, I just did a quick Forum search and can not find a single post documenting the hybridization of two Ancistruss spp in an aquarist's tank. Nor can I remember a case any where in the catfish hobby literature I have collected going back to the 1970s.

Possible from a genetic standpoint? Probably. However, that is a far distance from "Likely" which implies that it is a common problem rather than something that has never before been recorded.

-Shane

[DJ-don]

so it would be okay to buy them shane? (im hoping you will say yeas because these will be the 2nd dif type of pleco i have hhad

[MatsP]

Yes, keeping different species of Ancistrus (or more than one species any other genus of Loricariidae) in the same tank is likely to create hybrids.

Mats,
What are you basing this statement on? In all my years in the hobby, and all the Ancistrus spp I have kept and spawned (oft times with more than one species in the same tank), I have never seen this reported nor had it happen myself. In fact, I just did a quick Forum search and can not find a single post documenting the hybridization of two Ancistruss spp in an aquarist's tank. Nor can I remember a case any where in the catfish hobby literature I have collected going back to the 1970s.

Possible from a genetic standpoint? Probably. However, that is a far distance from "Likely" which implies that it is a common problem rather than something that has never before been recorded.

-Shane

Good point. I guess the cases we have seen are in Hypancistrus, which as a species is much younger. You are right, the word likely is definitely not correct here, as I have no direct evidence of the probability of this happening, nor any evidence that it actually has happened [although I think someone posted a fish that was supposed to be the hybrid of A. dolichopterus and a different species (common one if memory serves. I will try to dig up the post and post a link here)].

I'd still would recommend species of the same genus be kept separated, just in case.

--
Mats

[MatsP]

Here's the post with "definite hybrids":
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 23&start=0

Look towards the end of the thread. Unfortunately, it seems like the pictures aren't available any longer - I will try to PM Fuglydragon and see if he's got them and we could perhaps add them to the Cat-eLog.

--
Mats

[Shane]

so it would be okay to buy them shane?

I would not even hesitate to do so.
-Shane

[DJ-don]

ok thanks shane and i just read that post that mat just showed and the thing is~ i really dont understand some parts of it :S
its so confusing with this scince talk :S
im not good at science but i am good at biology a particular scince but i havent learnt this kind of stuff thepost says,

[DJ-don]

and the common bn's are more out going while the L181's are quite shy

would this be a problem in my tank? (167 litre 91x46x56 cm) 2 adult BN's 2 juvys and 6 cory's)

[Shane]

Here's the post with "definite hybrids":
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22823&start=0

Look towards the end of the thread. Unfortunately, it seems like the pictures aren't available any longer - I will try to PM Fuglydragon and see if he's got them and we could perhaps add them to the Cat-eLog.

Mats,
Thanks for finding that post. By the number of replies, it looks like pretty much everyone missed it. It would be very interesting to see if he has any photos of the fry so we could determine (or at least make a best guess) as to what, if anything, happened. I checked the link to his home page and found no further information. If he is correct (and these were not just the fry of the four L 182s already in the tank) this would be very interesting.
Regardless, I still would have no worries about mixing to very different Ancistrus spp like DJ--don plans to.
-Shane

[MatsP]

Here are the images from Mike (Fuglydragon):
Hybrids


Female:


Male:


He said he'd try to take some pictures of the now mature fish.

--
Mats

[DJ-don]

Here are the images from Mike (Fuglydragon):
Hybrids


Female:


Male:


He said he'd try to take some pictures of the now mature fish.

--
Mats

thats actually amazing i was hoping maybe you would have posted that earlier~at the CDAS meeting (canberra District Aquarium Society) i got a 7 cm or so Peppermint Bristly for $25 and i might be getting 2 more though
but right now im trying to get my parents to fix the broken tank and just use that tank as a christmas present
i cant remeber how big it was~i think 86x46X46 i think

and also im making some clay caves at school for the peppermints~how big should these be?