Military experts discuss Israel’s use of unguided bombs and harm to civilians in Gaza

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• Geoff Bennett:

  Earlier this week, both CNN and The Washington Post reported that the U.S. intelligence this community believes that 40 to 45 percent of the bombs that Israel has dropped in Gaza were unguided so-called dumb bombs, as opposed to precision munitions, which are much more accurate.

  Israel says it has struck over 22,000 terror targets in Gaza since the Hamas attacks on October 7. An Israeli military spokesman defended the use of unguided bombs, telling the "NewsHour" in a statement that — quote — "The IDF strikes military targets of the Hamas terrorist organization based on high-quality intelligence, while using high-quality munitions that are operated by skilled pilots and advanced systems. The type of munitions used in each strike is determined according to the characteristics of the target, the operational need, and the effort to mitigate harm to civilians."

  Two perspectives now on the Israeli use of unguided bombs in Gaza.

  Retired Lieutenant General David Deptula had a 36-year career in the Air Force and played major roles in planning American bombing campaigns in numerous wars, including Iraq in 1991 and Afghanistan in 2001. And Marc Garlasco was the chief of high-value targeting at the Defense Intelligence Agency from 1997 to 2003. He led teams that plan attacks, while limiting civilian deaths. He then worked for Human Rights Watch, where he investigated attacks against civilians.

  With a welcome to you both, Marc, I will start with you.

  What's your reaction to reports that 40 to 45 percent of the bombs that Israel is dropping and Gaza have been unguided?

  Marc Garlasco, PAX Protection of Civilians: Well, honestly, I'm really shocked.

  There's three reasons that you want to use precision-guided munitions. You want to destroy your target with minimal civilian harm, while upholding the laws of war. And there's nothing that's going to do a better job of doing that than a precision-guided munition, especially compared to an unguided bomb.

  Precision-guided munitions, you're looking at about a three-meter error. In an unguided bomb, you could have upwards of missing your target by 100 feet. That's highly problematic. And let's just look at U.S. practice. In '91, 8 percent of all bombs dropped on Iraq were precision. In 99, there were 33 percent of the bombs dropped on Serbia were precision.

  Then, in '02 and in '03, we had 65 percent of all bombs were precision-guided for Afghanistan and Iraq. And by Libya in 2011, it was 100 percent. But, really, it's not just the use of unguarded munitions that's leading to so many civilian deaths in Gaza. It's the choices that Israel's Israel's making of not applying civilian harm mitigation, of not using smaller weapons with less blast and fragmentation, like the GBU-39 that they could be using.

  And this is why we're seeing upwards of 20,000 dead Palestinians right now.

• Geoff Bennett:

  General Deptula, I want to get your reaction to what Marc Garlasco just had to say.

  And why is it OK for Israel to use unguided bombs, when the U.S. doesn't use them anymore?

  Lt. Gen. David Deptula (Ret.), U.S. Air Force: Well, Geoff, what I tell you is, the use of a weapon is highly dependent upon the effects that need to be accomplished.

  The collateral damage concerns regarding a particular target, and the accuracy of the weapon system in its entirety, not just the bomb itself. A dumb bomb delivered by a smart aircraft can still be accurate.

  So, there are legitimate reasons to use low-cost dumb bombs. An example is hitting a weapons storage location in an area where intelligence has determined there are no collateral damage or civilian casualty concerns.

  In other cases, there are fleeting targets that don't allow for the process of obtaining coordinates for GPS-guided weapons or obstacles that prevent a laser-guided delivery. So the pilot with a precise delivery system can quickly get to the target and deliver accurately before the opportunity evaporates.

  The bottom line is, I have seen the exquisite care the Israeli Defense Force takes to avoid civilian casualties. They have extraordinarily stringent rules for avoiding collateral damage. And I'm told by a very good source that Israel only uses dumb bombs after they clear an area.

• Geoff Bennett:

  Marc, your response to the notion that unguided bombs can be dropped in a precise way? And is Israel using these weapons because they don't have enough precision-guided bombs in their arsenal?

• Marc Garlasco:

  Well, I certainly agree that unguided weapons can be used in an accurate way in certain circumstances.

  But we're talking here about 10,000 to 15,000 unguided bombs being dropped in one of the most densely populated parts of the Earth. And this is incredibly dangerous. Now, looking at the weapons transfers that are put publicly out by the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, we can see that over 35,000 guided weapons have been provided to Israel in recent years.

  And that doesn't include the weapons that were provided just this year. And that right now is classified. But let's take again a look at U.S. practice. When I was in the Pentagon and conducting targeting there for the Iraq War, for example, in 2003, we were dropping munitions in Baghdad and throughout different cities in Iraq.

  And at no time did I ever have a weaponeer suggest to me that we should use an unguided munition. And let's take a look at a very similar conflict, right? Let's look at Raqqa in Syria, where the U.S. was involved with a lot of aerial munitions.

  There's a great story. There's a quote there from a pilot talking about how you have all of these buildings around a densely populated area, the enemy commingled with civilians, and the pilot asks, how am I supposed to fly the plane and drop a bomb down in alleyway? And the answer that the report comes up with is precision-guided munitions.

• Geoff Bennett:

  General, when President Biden described Israel's bombing campaign as indiscriminate, as he did this past week, I'd imagine you would take issue with that.

• Lt. Gen. David Deptula:

  Yes, actually I would. And it was an extraordinarily unfortunate and indiscriminate use of the term indiscriminate attacks.

  And I think definitions are important here. In accordance with the international humanitarian law, indiscriminate attacks are defined as, first, attacks which are not directed at specific military objectives, second, attacks which employ a means of combat that cannot be directed at a specific military objective, or, third, attacks which employ a means of combat, the effects of which cannot be limited, as required by international humanitarian law, and, consequently, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

  None of these situations apply to the Israeli Air Force.

• Geoff Bennett:

  That is retired Lieutenant General David Deptula and Marc Garlasco.

  We thank you both for your insights.

• Marc Garlasco:

  Thank you for having me.

• Lt. Gen. David Deptula:

  You bet, Geoff. Thank you.