Advice Needed Multi-sat system upgrade advice?

[Gavin Adcock]

I have a 45cm Technisat dish and multytenne twin feeding an HTPC with two sat cards (digital devices pro and WinTV Nova S2). This system has been running for about 8 years, mainly to watch UK TV from 28°E but also some German (19°E) and Swiss (13°E) TV. I am based near Geneva, Switzerland.

Since about a year or so, TV reception has been patchy. Generally, reception on 19°E is best, and UK channels are hit-and-miss. HD is definately more sensitive than SD. Although HD reception was always tricky, it seems to me that recently the UK HD channels are more often 'down' than 'up'. Several channels are usually unreceivable regardless of weather (ITV1 HD, Channel 5), others dropping in-and-out (BBC1 HD, BBC2 HD) and others running reliably (any SD channel on 19°E).

My conclusion is that my 45cm dish is on the fringe of reliable reception for 28°E, and small variations in signal or other reasons cause these to drop in and out of a "receiveable" signal. I have two lines of questioning:

1. Is it logical that I'm struggling more with HD than SD? If so, is it likely that a larger dish will resolve these reception issues?

2. If I upgrade to a larger dish, what setup would you suggest? I'm willing to invest to test a larger dish, but most options I have found mean replacing my entire system. As an example, Technosat makes a larger skytenne with mutil-feeds (not cheap!) but unlike the multytenne these require separate cables for each LNB and so multiswitches and this becomes a larger $$$$ investment. Is there a way of testing this 'on the cheap'? One idea I had idea is to buy a larger dish, a multi-head arm, one LNB and then test the UK reception. Another consideration is to buy a signal strength monitor to test that my alignment is as good as it can be - suggestions?

Thanks for all your input, Gavin.

 

[PaulR]

I think it's amazing that a 45cm dish works at all for the UK beam channels. It's entirely logical that the HD channels go first as they have a greater FEC ratio which means there's less error correction available .

The obvious size increase would be to go to a 60cm dish but if you have the space I would be inclined to go to an 80cm dish which would give extra margin against rain fade. If you have a 60cm dish hanging around and it doesn't cost you anything then try that by all means. The multytenne LNB might even be suitable for the 60cm dish so not much would need to be changed.

 

[Gavin Adcock]

It's entirely logical that the HD channels go first as they have a greater FEC ratio which means there's less error correction available .

The obvious size increase would be to go to a 60cm dish but if you have the space I would be inclined to go to an 80cm dish. The multytenne LNB might even be suitable for the 60cm dish so not much would need to be changed.

Thanks, Paul, especially for answering Q1 by confirming my hunch that HD will fade first and that, as a result, a bigger dish will probably help. It's certainly worth an experiment.

On to Q2 options:
1. I'd love to just stick on a 80cm dish but the Multitenne doesn't allow this (at least, I don't think so). The Multytenne arm is built especially for the 45cm dish, as you can see from this image:

I can't see a way to attach this to a larger dish, but I'm open to suggestions.
2. I've emailed Technisat about the Skytenne, who confirm that the Skytenne cannot be used with DISEqC switches because each LND has 4 different outputs (horizontal high, vertical high, vertical low, horizontal low). So, you need their multiswitch GigaSystem 17/8 which makes a total outlay of €600 or so.
3. I've seen some multi-LBN systems (e.g. from Visosat or Wavefrontier) but I'm unsure what LNBs, switches, satfinders, etc. would be needed to get such a system to work.

Any suggestions?

 

[RimaNTSS]

I've seen some multi-LBN systems (e.g. from Visosat or Wavefrontier) but I'm unsure what LNBs, switches, satfinders, etc. would be needed to get such a system to work.

Any universal LNBs (white or black, up to you), but they should not be huge in their dimensions. For the beginning Diseqc 1/4 will be enough. Satfinder is not necessary, you can use receiver for tuning each individual LNB.
Ar e you allowed to install big antenna (more than 1 meter) at your place?

 

[PaulR]

I have to confess that I assumed that the multytenne was a type of monoblock LNB as I had no personal experience of them. If it can pull signals in from three satellites (13E, 19E and 28E) then it's a very special type as I have only heard of monoblocks for two satellite positions.

If I have misunderstood and it's only for two satellites then monoblock LNBs for 13E/19E are available. Not so sure about a 19E/28E though. In fact I would think of a multi LNB bracket for the three positions and a DiSeqc switch to tie them together. A bit more fiddly to set up but more flexible in what it can cover as you would need to put 28E as the primary position.

 

[Ghostleader]

Surely a 78/80cm dish and a matched bracket with the three LNBs Would a sensible replacement here. WhatSat always said that it was a pity that there wasn't a 80 cm version of the multytenne dish.

Sent from my T5 using Tapatalk

 

[Gavin Adcock]

Any universal LNBs... For the beginning Diseqc 1/4 will be enough.
Are you allowed to install big antenna (more than 1 meter) at your place?

I'd like two sat feeds (so I can watch and record at the same time), so I guess I need a slim, dual LNB? Any suggestions as to which one? Married to this I'll need two 1/4 Diseqcs, right? Again, anything particular to look for? Yes to large antenna but I don't think I need to go above 80cm.

WhatSat always said that it was a pity that there wasn't a 80 cm version of the multytenne dish.

Couldn't agree more. I am emailing Technisat to see if I can match the Multytenne with a standard 80cm dish. No conclusive answer yet.

If it can pull signals in from three satellites (13E, 19E and 28E) then it's a very special type.

It's even more special than than - the monoblock has 4 LNBs for 13°E, 19°E, 23°E, and 28° (I don't need 23°E). It also has all the internals needed for switching and twin outputs. It's just shame it doesn't have a large dish.

Thanks to all for your inputs, Gavin.

 

[RimaNTSS]

I'd like two sat feeds (so I can watch and record at the same time), so I guess I need a slim, dual LNB? Any suggestions as to which one? Married to this I'll need two 1/4 Diseqcs, right? Again, anything particular to look for? Yes to large antenna but I don't think I need to go above 80cm.

Than I would suggest for you to go for 110-120cm (bigger is always better) antenna with multifeed on it for 4 Twin LNBs. LNBs set up for 4,8*E-13*E-19,2*-28*E. Then you will need 2 x 1/4 Diseqc (the cheapest ones, something about 5 EUR each in cases for installation outside).

 

[hairybadger]

I get about 12dbW from 28.2E with a T-90 centred on 19.2E, am just down the road from you (we've had a similar conversation before ). I have a twin Black Ultra on 28.2E and a quad on 19.2E. West I can go as far as 5W with an extension arm, but here there is very little rain fade margin. I use cascaded Diseqc switches to connect to 16LNBs, but you could get away with 2X 4-way Diseqc switches. I have an 80cm dish + multifeed arm + LNBs you could borrow to test the setup.

 

[Gavin Adcock]

We've had a similar conversation before . I have a twin Black Ultra on 28.2E and a quad on 19.2E. I use cascaded Diseqc switches to connect to 16LNBs, but you could get away with 2X 4-way Diseqc switches. I have an 80cm dish + multifeed arm + LNBs you could borrow to test the setup.

Good to hear form you again! I looked at the T-90 and it seems over-engineered for my needs. I might take you up on the offer for a loan, although if you say it works with an 80cm dish around here, I would probably just buy one. Can you suggest a suitable setup for me and websites where I might get this stuff? I can't seem to find much in CH.

 

[hairybadger]

Good to hear form you again! I looked at the T-90 and it seems over-engineered for my needs. I might take you up on the offer for a loan, although if you say it works with an 80cm dish around here, I would probably just buy one. Can you suggest a suitable setup for me and websites where I might get this stuff? I can't seem to find much in CH.

The T-90 is pretty chunky The problem is that once you have it set up properly for your 4 or whatever LNBs you'll find it too easy to add more.... I have photos of my setup on here somewhere. I am based in France so tend to use French suppliers, 2Galli (principally) and bfsat, but I've also had various things come from hm-sat.de via Amazon. 2Galli have bisat dishes designed for multifocus, maybe one of those? A standard 80cm dish set up for multifocus will be a compromise and I'm not sure how much wiggle room we have in our part of the world for the 28.2E UK spot beam. Is probably going to be a case of suck it and see Or you could stick with your existing dish and put up a separate vanilla 80cm for 28.2E.

 

[Gavin Adcock]

The T-90 is pretty chunky I am based in France so tend to use French suppliers, 2Galli (principally) and bfsat, but I've also had various things come from hm-sat.de via Amazon. 2Galli have bisat dishes designed for multifocus, maybe one of those? A standard 80cm dish set up for multifocus will be a compromise and I'm not sure how much wiggle room we have in our part of the world for the 28.2E UK spot beam. Is probably going to be a case of suck it and see Or you could stick with your existing dish and put up a separate vanilla 80cm for 28.2E.

I want to avoid a vanilla 28°-only setup because I also have some (lesser) issues with 13° and 19° reception. So, it's multifocus only! I found the WaveFrontier T85 here which seems like a decent option, or alternatively the Variosat (more expensive). Do you see an advantage for either option?

Is the twin Black Ultra LNB something special or would any twin LNB be OK (a selection here)?

For whatever reasons, many suppliers (e.g. amazon) don't deliver to Switzerland. I can get things delivered to nearby adresses in France but that is just extra hassle.

 

[hairybadger]

I want to avoid a vanilla 28°-only setup because I also have some (lesser) issues with 13° and 19° reception. So, it's multifocus only! I found the WaveFrontier T85 here which seems like a decent option, or alternatively the Variosat (more expensive). Do you see an advantage for either option?

I have no experience with either dish, so my opinion would just be a matter of reading the stats back to you However - some dishes have mountings that are easier to set up than others. You have no way of telling this from the stats, of course

Is the twin Black Ultra LNB something special or would any twin LNB be OK (a selection here)?

The Ultras have a good reputation here for fringe reception, but not everyone here thinks they are particularly good. I use a quad on 19.2E and a twin on 28.2E and I'm happy with both (some forum members have had mixed results with twins). Since 28.2E is your most difficult catch I'd go with an Ultra for that and something else for the others (pretty much what I do although like I said I have an Ultra on 19.2E as well). Interesting that you have reception issues with 19.2E and 13E - neither of these should be any trouble at all where you are.

For whatever reasons, many suppliers (e.g. amazon) don't deliver to Switzerland. I can get things delivered to nearby adresses in France but that is just extra hassle.

Certainly quite a few of my colleagues who live on one side of the border have stuff delivered to a colleague who lives on the opposite side according to the specific need Personally I buy laptops in Switzerland because my brain can't cope with a French keyboard....

 

[Gavin Adcock]

Interesting that you have reception issues with 19.2E and 13E - neither of these should be any trouble at all where you are.

19° is almost perfect - I loose some HD channels but this is rare (remember it is a 45cm dish). 13° has some issue because (1) I only watch Swiss HD channels and (2) when you set up the Multytenne, you focus on 19° and 28° and 13° should be aligned. However, the device alignment assumes an average position somewhere in Germany so alignment for both 28° and 13° is sub-optimal. As I watch mainly UK TV, I have tried to fiddle the alignment to be the best compromise between all 3 positions.

While we're on the topic - do you have stable reception of all UK TV channels with your setup? By this I mean the 4 BBC channels, 4 ITV, Channel 4 , More 4, 5 etc. Also in HD where available? And in bad weather?

 

[hairybadger]

While we're on the topic - do you have stable reception of all UK TV channels with your setup? By this I mean the 4 BBC channels, 4 ITV, Channel 4 , More 4, 5 etc. Also in HD where available? And in bad weather?

Yes - I didn't a month or so ago (Champions league on ITV HD breaking up in rain) and assumed it was something to do with the sat changse. Then a few weeks ago I went out to have a fiddle with the dish and found that the dish skew was some way out - must have shifted over time. I fixed that and now have trouble-free reception HD and SD in all weathers (well - in all weathers we've had over the past few weeks, and it has rained a bit).

 

[Gavin Adcock]

Yes - I didn't a month or so ago (Champions league on ITV HD breaking up in rain) and assumed it was something to do with the sat changse. Then a few weeks ago I went out to have a fiddle with the dish and found that the dish skew was some way out - must have shifted over time. I fixed that and now have trouble-free reception HD and SD in all weathers (well - in all weathers we've had over the past few weeks, and it has rained a bit).

Good to know. One issue with the Multytenne is that you don't have the flexibility to adjust each LNB. You have one single position for all 4 LNBs.

What do you use to adjust your dish? Any special tools?

 

[hairybadger]

Good to know. One issue with the Multytenne is that you don't have the flexibility to adjust each LNB. You have one single position for all 4 LNBs.
What do you use to adjust your dish? Any special tools?

spanner But - I have a solo2 and an android app vuplayer (or called something similar), so I take the tablet outside and as I'm fiddling with the dish I can see the effect it has on signal level. The T-90 isn't *too* difficult to setup. First of all you get the centre LNB right, then once you have a second LNB dialled in putting the rest in is just a matter of positioning them on the rail.

Edit: I'm changing to a different French service (Bis) for which I'll need 5W. I can *just* get this on the T-90, but I can't swing the dish more towards 5W without impacting on 28.2E, so my current intention is to put in a separate 80cm dish just for 5W.

 

[Gavin Adcock]

I have a solo2 and an android app vuplayer (or called something similar), so I take the tablet outside and as I'm fiddling with the dish I can see the effect it has on signal level.

A google search tells me solo2 are headphones and vuplayer is a music player. So, somehow you are getting an audio signal of the signal level? Is that right?

 

[hairybadger]

A google search tells me solo2 are headphones and vuplayer is a music player. So, somehow you are getting an audio signal of the signal level? Is that right?

vu+ solo2 - it's an enigma2 receiver. Sorry! Also - try googling vu+ player for the app. I point the app at the solo2 over the LAN and it has a signal meter option.

 

[Gavin Adcock]

vu+ solo2 - it's an enigma2 receiver. Sorry! Also - try googling vu+ player for the app. I point the app at the solo2 over the LAN and it has a signal meter option.

As I was on a roll, I tried a few tests tonight. Firstly, the SatFinder app confirms I have a perfectly unobstructed view of all satellites. I then played with the dish alignment and managed a minor improvement on signal quality - BBC HD was at 47, now it oscillates between 48-62 (readings from within MediaPortal, although it's mainly at 48). This is enough to make the difference between a very broken up image, and perfection. In my mind, this is a confirmation that I'm on the edge of a 'receivable' feed. (especially as it is perfect weather tonight). I do find it weird that the signal can vacillate so much; maybe this is just a feature of MediaPortal?

Hairybadger - I'm considering mounting the new dish on the roof connected to a disused TV antenna (for esthetic reasons). Good or bad idea given difficult access? How often do you adjust your dish?